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	<title>Comments on: The Fall of Little Geneva Raises Questions</title>
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	<description>Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind</description>
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		<title>By: Monetary Nationalism and Respect for Chickens &#124; Spirit/Water/Blood</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-15309</link>
		<dc:creator>Monetary Nationalism and Respect for Chickens &#124; Spirit/Water/Blood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-15309</guid>
		<description>[...] Here&#8217;s a textbook example of what passes for debate on Kinism. It starts with a ruling elder of a church (in this case) linking to a bundle of malicious and rather silly lies to prove that Kinism, which is simply shorthand for the views held by every Christian who lived prior to 1950, is evil. The &quot;manner in which&quot; Little Geneva &quot;was brought down&quot; is very simple. The Ministry Mafia hacked into the server and also left porn files there. The Holy Terrorists did this to protect their Teflon Don from public criticism and scrutiny. Many other websites owned by our friends have also been hacked. We are using different blog software here and have taken precautions to make it far more secure than any Wordpress blog. At any rate, the recipe calls for denouncing &quot;the hate that was spewed&quot; at LG without any proof whatsoever that any of it was false. This is S.O.P. and hardly worthy of linking to it. The reason this particular linked page is worth reading is because of the excellent comments by &quot;Ehud Would.&quot; And when confronted with sound reason, the blog&#8217;s proprietor looked down at his watch and announced that he just doesn&#8217;t have the time to sort through the details, and you never know when the weather could turn. Okay, then. Back to spewing hatred. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here&#8217;s a textbook example of what passes for debate on Kinism. It starts with a ruling elder of a church (in this case) linking to a bundle of malicious and rather silly lies to prove that Kinism, which is simply shorthand for the views held by every Christian who lived prior to 1950, is evil. The &quot;manner in which&quot; Little Geneva &quot;was brought down&quot; is very simple. The Ministry Mafia hacked into the server and also left porn files there. The Holy Terrorists did this to protect their Teflon Don from public criticism and scrutiny. Many other websites owned by our friends have also been hacked. We are using different blog software here and have taken precautions to make it far more secure than any WordPress blog. At any rate, the recipe calls for denouncing &quot;the hate that was spewed&quot; at LG without any proof whatsoever that any of it was false. This is S.O.P. and hardly worthy of linking to it. The reason this particular linked page is worth reading is because of the excellent comments by &quot;Ehud Would.&quot; And when confronted with sound reason, the blog&#8217;s proprietor looked down at his watch and announced that he just doesn&#8217;t have the time to sort through the details, and you never know when the weather could turn. Okay, then. Back to spewing hatred. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14026</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14026</guid>
		<description>This has been an &lt;em&gt;interesting&lt;/em&gt; discussion and I must apologize for not chiming in on much of it.  Part of the issue has simply been the busyness of life; part of the problem is not knowing where to begin.  I say this because each one of you are coming from vastly different persepectives filled with varying presuppositions about the Bible, Christianity, culture, etc.  I really want to take the time to engage, but frankly I just don&#039;t have the time right now to sort through all the thoughts and tangents of a post that has gotten WAY off topic (not to mention turned into a confrontational debate; a contest of wills or egos if you will).  For these reasons I&#039;m shutting down comments on this thread.  I do try hard to keep new content coming, so I&#039;m sure this topic will come up again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been an <em>interesting</em> discussion and I must apologize for not chiming in on much of it.  Part of the issue has simply been the busyness of life; part of the problem is not knowing where to begin.  I say this because each one of you are coming from vastly different persepectives filled with varying presuppositions about the Bible, Christianity, culture, etc.  I really want to take the time to engage, but frankly I just don&#8217;t have the time right now to sort through all the thoughts and tangents of a post that has gotten WAY off topic (not to mention turned into a confrontational debate; a contest of wills or egos if you will).  For these reasons I&#8217;m shutting down comments on this thread.  I do try hard to keep new content coming, so I&#8217;m sure this topic will come up again.</p>
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		<title>By: BigCalvin</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14025</link>
		<dc:creator>BigCalvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14025</guid>
		<description>Just a jab.  This is all too fun and I couldn&#039;t hold back.  Remember, if it&#039;s not published in a journal it&#039;s bogus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a jab.  This is all too fun and I couldn&#8217;t hold back.  Remember, if it&#8217;s not published in a journal it&#8217;s bogus.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehud would</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14022</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud would</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14022</guid>
		<description>Oh and as for sounding like Tony, all I&#039;ve to say is... come on now, how you gon&#039; do me like gat? 

I was endeavoring in my citation to give passages which elaborated not only the conclusions but also the thought processes which brought certain luminaries to those conclusions. Like Tony? Not at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and as for sounding like Tony, all I&#8217;ve to say is&#8230; come on now, how you gon&#8217; do me like gat? </p>
<p>I was endeavoring in my citation to give passages which elaborated not only the conclusions but also the thought processes which brought certain luminaries to those conclusions. Like Tony? Not at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehud would</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14020</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud would</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14020</guid>
		<description>Hey Dave, others have answered your question better than I likely could:

Augustine and Calvin denied this interpretation. There is nothing prior to Numbers 12 about the death of Zipporah, and so we must assume that this chapter refers to her. Zipporah was a Midianite, and her people were related to the Hebrews through Abraham&#039;s wife Keturah. The Midianites lived in the land of Cush, which is modern-day Ethiopia. The 1599 Geneva Bible agrees: &quot;Zipporah, Mosesâ€™ wife, was a Midianite, and because Midian bordered on Ethiopia, it is sometimes referred to in the scriptures by this name.&quot; As Matthew Henry writes, the sedition of Miriam and Aaron was &quot;because of Zipporah, whom on this occasion they called, in scorn, an Ethiopian woman, and who, they insinuated, had too great an influence upon Moses in the choice of these seventy elders.&quot; (Harry Seabrook in his response to John Piper)

And BigCalvin, I think I finally understand your meaning. Youâ€™re asking how we can know for certain that the fleshly commonality between Adam and Eve necessitates normative racial commonality in the here and now(?). Well, as Iâ€™ve said, between Moses and Paul it seems that the creation mandate regarding congenial kinds (Deut.22:9-11) extends into the biological/ taxonomical as much as it does to the covenantal/ familial. Really, by nature of heredity, the two categories overlap. Therefore, acknowledging as we do the bio-familial nature at work in the covenant of marriage, its hard to fathom how we might take from Gen. 1 &amp; 2 that obvious dissimilarity between man and wife be acceptable. It simply cannot be said to comport (in the full capability of manâ€™s stewardship) with the example of the first union. 
Words like â€œHelpmeetâ€ (mirror, reflection) and phrases like â€œbone of my bone and flesh of my fleshâ€¦â€ simply demand of us a serious and categorical pursuit of like kind. Anything short of this interpretation smacks of â€œhath God truly said?â€ (Gen.3) Really, that seems to be the nature of Christâ€™s dialogue with the Jews in Matt.19â€” notice, they werenâ€™t attempting to deny any overt commands of the creation ordinance against divorce but rather the implications of the first union as a normative template. He was chiding them for their lack of necessary inference from the text.

Take for instance someone who marries his Grandmother (I know, ick, but bear with me) â€” where does the Bible explicitly forbid such a union? It doesnâ€™t â€” atleast that is, not outside of implication from the creation ordinance and the multipurpose prohibitions against unequal yoking as an extension thereof. Now what if this strange someone insisted that his Grandmother is a Christian woman (maybe even still in her childbearing years) and thus fulfilled all explicit requirements for a wife? Would we consent? If his assumptions are in any way faulty, so too are those of mixed-race marriage. And accordingly, if mixed-race marriage is vindicated upon the premises which youâ€™ve set forth, so too then is the man who marries Grammy and with him a plethora of other unusual circumstances follow. Remember our discussion of the Christian man wanting to marry a ten year old girl? It also applies.

We also garner further definition of â€œHelpmeetâ€ by further textual example: 

â€œThis is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.â€ (Gen.6:9)                                                                                                      

Now, some take the above word â€œgenerationsâ€ as we might use it today to mean the generation in which he lived but this is demonstrably a false assumption by way of its previous usage in-text:

â€œThese are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,â€ (Gen.2:4)

Now hereâ€™s what Calvin says concerning the meaning of â€œgenerationsâ€:

â€œThese are the generations. 9 The design of Moses was deeply to impress upon our minds the origin of the heaven and the earth, which he designates by the word generation. For there have always been ungrateful and malignant men, who, either by feigning, that the world was eternal or by obliterating the memory of the creations would attempt to obscure the glory of God. Thus the devils by his guiles turns those away from God who are more ingenious and skillful than others in order that each may become a god unto himself.â€ (Calvinâ€™s Commentaries on Gen.2:4)

That is to say that the â€œperfectionâ€ of Noah in his â€œgenerationsâ€ had to do with his line of descent as a Sethite, separate from the line of Cain. And as weâ€™ve spoken of before, the Patriarchs all follow suit by their refusal to takes wives for their sons from among any other than the Semite race. You may opt to say that they were precluded from intermarriage with Canaanites specifically as a people bound for annihilation but that doesnâ€™t resolve the issue as there were plenty of Japhethites in the vicinity also. But still the people of God were motivated by some moral conviction to strictly marry kindred. 

I know I wasnâ€™t able to respond to everything this time around but I live the days of my labor on the minute hand of a clock. I hope to address more of what you had to say at a later time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dave, others have answered your question better than I likely could:</p>
<p>Augustine and Calvin denied this interpretation. There is nothing prior to Numbers 12 about the death of Zipporah, and so we must assume that this chapter refers to her. Zipporah was a Midianite, and her people were related to the Hebrews through Abraham&#8217;s wife Keturah. The Midianites lived in the land of Cush, which is modern-day Ethiopia. The 1599 Geneva Bible agrees: &#8220;Zipporah, Mosesâ€™ wife, was a Midianite, and because Midian bordered on Ethiopia, it is sometimes referred to in the scriptures by this name.&#8221; As Matthew Henry writes, the sedition of Miriam and Aaron was &#8220;because of Zipporah, whom on this occasion they called, in scorn, an Ethiopian woman, and who, they insinuated, had too great an influence upon Moses in the choice of these seventy elders.&#8221; (Harry Seabrook in his response to John Piper)</p>
<p>And BigCalvin, I think I finally understand your meaning. Youâ€™re asking how we can know for certain that the fleshly commonality between Adam and Eve necessitates normative racial commonality in the here and now(?). Well, as Iâ€™ve said, between Moses and Paul it seems that the creation mandate regarding congenial kinds (Deut.22:9-11) extends into the biological/ taxonomical as much as it does to the covenantal/ familial. Really, by nature of heredity, the two categories overlap. Therefore, acknowledging as we do the bio-familial nature at work in the covenant of marriage, its hard to fathom how we might take from Gen. 1 &amp; 2 that obvious dissimilarity between man and wife be acceptable. It simply cannot be said to comport (in the full capability of manâ€™s stewardship) with the example of the first union.<br />
Words like â€œHelpmeetâ€ (mirror, reflection) and phrases like â€œbone of my bone and flesh of my fleshâ€¦â€ simply demand of us a serious and categorical pursuit of like kind. Anything short of this interpretation smacks of â€œhath God truly said?â€ (Gen.3) Really, that seems to be the nature of Christâ€™s dialogue with the Jews in Matt.19â€” notice, they werenâ€™t attempting to deny any overt commands of the creation ordinance against divorce but rather the implications of the first union as a normative template. He was chiding them for their lack of necessary inference from the text.</p>
<p>Take for instance someone who marries his Grandmother (I know, ick, but bear with me) â€” where does the Bible explicitly forbid such a union? It doesnâ€™t â€” atleast that is, not outside of implication from the creation ordinance and the multipurpose prohibitions against unequal yoking as an extension thereof. Now what if this strange someone insisted that his Grandmother is a Christian woman (maybe even still in her childbearing years) and thus fulfilled all explicit requirements for a wife? Would we consent? If his assumptions are in any way faulty, so too are those of mixed-race marriage. And accordingly, if mixed-race marriage is vindicated upon the premises which youâ€™ve set forth, so too then is the man who marries Grammy and with him a plethora of other unusual circumstances follow. Remember our discussion of the Christian man wanting to marry a ten year old girl? It also applies.</p>
<p>We also garner further definition of â€œHelpmeetâ€ by further textual example: </p>
<p>â€œThis is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.â€ (Gen.6:9)                                                                                                      </p>
<p>Now, some take the above word â€œgenerationsâ€ as we might use it today to mean the generation in which he lived but this is demonstrably a false assumption by way of its previous usage in-text:</p>
<p>â€œThese are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,â€ (Gen.2:4)</p>
<p>Now hereâ€™s what Calvin says concerning the meaning of â€œgenerationsâ€:</p>
<p>â€œThese are the generations. 9 The design of Moses was deeply to impress upon our minds the origin of the heaven and the earth, which he designates by the word generation. For there have always been ungrateful and malignant men, who, either by feigning, that the world was eternal or by obliterating the memory of the creations would attempt to obscure the glory of God. Thus the devils by his guiles turns those away from God who are more ingenious and skillful than others in order that each may become a god unto himself.â€ (Calvinâ€™s Commentaries on Gen.2:4)</p>
<p>That is to say that the â€œperfectionâ€ of Noah in his â€œgenerationsâ€ had to do with his line of descent as a Sethite, separate from the line of Cain. And as weâ€™ve spoken of before, the Patriarchs all follow suit by their refusal to takes wives for their sons from among any other than the Semite race. You may opt to say that they were precluded from intermarriage with Canaanites specifically as a people bound for annihilation but that doesnâ€™t resolve the issue as there were plenty of Japhethites in the vicinity also. But still the people of God were motivated by some moral conviction to strictly marry kindred. </p>
<p>I know I wasnâ€™t able to respond to everything this time around but I live the days of my labor on the minute hand of a clock. I hope to address more of what you had to say at a later time.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14017</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14017</guid>
		<description>Did Moses marry a black woman?  Numbers 12 indicates that he married a Cushite, which is an Ethopian, I believe.  Unless I&#039;m misreading the text, Miriam and Aaron grumble against Moses for his inter-racial marriage, yet God rebukes them and declares Moses faithful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Moses marry a black woman?  Numbers 12 indicates that he married a Cushite, which is an Ethopian, I believe.  Unless I&#8217;m misreading the text, Miriam and Aaron grumble against Moses for his inter-racial marriage, yet God rebukes them and declares Moses faithful.</p>
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		<title>By: BigCalvin</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14015</link>
		<dc:creator>BigCalvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14015</guid>
		<description>If Jesus&#039; indictment of the Jews in Matt.19 isn&#039;t prescriptive I don&#039;t know what is. He&#039;s forthrightly telling them that the creation ordinance is the standard for marriage.  He&#039;s telling them that that is the way God made it.  Sure!  He&#039;s also quoting Genesis 2:24.  How do we know what this creation ordinance consists of?  You have to explain a rule.  The specifics of the first marriage don&#039;t tell us a wit about race.  You just read it in with the word &quot;kind&quot;.  As for Romans, it is surely more clear on gov&#039;t relations than Genesis is on race relations...since you still haven&#039;t shown how Genesis is even dealing with the issue.

How is mixed marriage a violation of the 5th and 6th commandments?  
Saying it doesn&#039;t make it so.  Come on Edud...marriage to a non-white is a sin if my father is white?  I suppose it could be a kind of sin if I disobey him when he commands me not to marry a non-white, but it may also be a sin for him to command it.  That begs the whole discussion....

As for mixing fibers and mixing with unbelievers...that I agree is a nice way to make the inference.  I agree totally.  Apparently Paul is explaining the meaning of these seperatness laws:  Prefiguring of the strict seperation of believers from non-believers.  The Sons of God, the Race of the Redeemed...must never be yoked with the Sons of Men or the pagans.

On Congeniality:

Moses to Paul:  veggies to marriage.  Good.  We agree.  The thing we don&#039;t agree on is that race is an essential difference such that mixing it is a sin.  You claim that it is just like mixing with an unbeliever and not honoring your father.  That is the thing yet to be proved E-hood.  

Now I&#039;ll leave in your Timothy citation.  It&#039;s good.
1st Tim.5:7-8
&quot;7 And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.&quot;

Again, you are begging the question.  Those of his own household means those of his own household.  He goes from &quot;his own&quot; to &quot;his own household&quot;.  Wider to narrower.  His own is the important point.  His own could be expanded indefinitely.  Where does it stop?  Paul means relatives, then relatives under your care.  Relatives could be expanded indefinitely, but we all know who relatives are.  In fact, many have relatives of other races.  Both you and I do.  Again question begging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Jesus&#8217; indictment of the Jews in Matt.19 isn&#8217;t prescriptive I don&#8217;t know what is. He&#8217;s forthrightly telling them that the creation ordinance is the standard for marriage.  He&#8217;s telling them that that is the way God made it.  Sure!  He&#8217;s also quoting Genesis 2:24.  How do we know what this creation ordinance consists of?  You have to explain a rule.  The specifics of the first marriage don&#8217;t tell us a wit about race.  You just read it in with the word &#8220;kind&#8221;.  As for Romans, it is surely more clear on gov&#8217;t relations than Genesis is on race relations&#8230;since you still haven&#8217;t shown how Genesis is even dealing with the issue.</p>
<p>How is mixed marriage a violation of the 5th and 6th commandments?<br />
Saying it doesn&#8217;t make it so.  Come on Edud&#8230;marriage to a non-white is a sin if my father is white?  I suppose it could be a kind of sin if I disobey him when he commands me not to marry a non-white, but it may also be a sin for him to command it.  That begs the whole discussion&#8230;.</p>
<p>As for mixing fibers and mixing with unbelievers&#8230;that I agree is a nice way to make the inference.  I agree totally.  Apparently Paul is explaining the meaning of these seperatness laws:  Prefiguring of the strict seperation of believers from non-believers.  The Sons of God, the Race of the Redeemed&#8230;must never be yoked with the Sons of Men or the pagans.</p>
<p>On Congeniality:</p>
<p>Moses to Paul:  veggies to marriage.  Good.  We agree.  The thing we don&#8217;t agree on is that race is an essential difference such that mixing it is a sin.  You claim that it is just like mixing with an unbeliever and not honoring your father.  That is the thing yet to be proved E-hood.  </p>
<p>Now I&#8217;ll leave in your Timothy citation.  It&#8217;s good.<br />
1st Tim.5:7-8<br />
&#8220;7 And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, you are begging the question.  Those of his own household means those of his own household.  He goes from &#8220;his own&#8221; to &#8220;his own household&#8221;.  Wider to narrower.  His own is the important point.  His own could be expanded indefinitely.  Where does it stop?  Paul means relatives, then relatives under your care.  Relatives could be expanded indefinitely, but we all know who relatives are.  In fact, many have relatives of other races.  Both you and I do.  Again question begging.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehud would</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14014</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud would</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14014</guid>
		<description>If Jesus&#039; indictment of the Jews in Matt.19 isn&#039;t prescriptive I don&#039;t know what is. He&#039;s forthrightly telling them that the creation ordinance is the standard for marriage. 

If you still consider the specifics of the first marriage descriptive only rather than prescriptive also I think you argue with Jesus on the matter. And if you&#039;re unwilling to acknowledge presciption where God has so clearly called us to take a thing as templative example you wind up foregoing our Knoxian understanding of Rom.13 for it surely has less in it to lend toward prescription than had Gen.1 &amp; 2. 

As for any &quot;Unwritten Ten Commandments&quot;, I in no way intend to insinuate such a thing. I do however intend to acknowledge that there exist many applications of the decalogue which we must reason out of the scripture as a whole. We nolonger fence rooftops but we do fence swimming pools for the sake of stray children. Are we therein partaking in a set of &quot;Unwritten Commandments&quot;? No. They are written plainly enough. But again, this is Christ&#039;s issue with the Jews in Matt.19 who refused to acknowledge the necessary implications of God&#039;s example for the family. Any violation of the institution as exemplified in the creation would then accordingly violate some measure of the decalogue also. To the issue in dispute I beleive the fifth and perhaps the seventh commandments are transgressed in mixed-marriage. If there is in some way a disregard for the Father (earthly or heavenly)in our bridegrooming it also undermines the concept of marital fidelity.

You could persist in calling it &quot;weak&quot; but if so it must be asked what connection you beleive Deut.22:9-11 has to the Ten commandments(?). First or second tablet? You may defer to say its ceremonial but if you do you&#039;ll be arguing with the Apostle Paul who identifies it as pertaining to marriage in 2 Cor. 6:14.    
  
9 Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled. [a]
10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.
11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. (Deut.22:9-11) 

It&#039;s an acknowledgement of what Rushdoony called &quot;congeniality&quot; of kind as a directive amidst the creation. As God&#039;s Viceroy on earth man&#039;s role is in part to categorize and steward the myriad differentiations in the world. Again, where Moses applies it to a mundane swath of biological things, Paul applies it to Marriage. And...

  1st Tim.5:7-8
&quot;7 And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.&quot;

...Paul reinforces the notion of ethnic responsibility to the families of our nativity.

Out of time. Gotta go---</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Jesus&#8217; indictment of the Jews in Matt.19 isn&#8217;t prescriptive I don&#8217;t know what is. He&#8217;s forthrightly telling them that the creation ordinance is the standard for marriage. </p>
<p>If you still consider the specifics of the first marriage descriptive only rather than prescriptive also I think you argue with Jesus on the matter. And if you&#8217;re unwilling to acknowledge presciption where God has so clearly called us to take a thing as templative example you wind up foregoing our Knoxian understanding of Rom.13 for it surely has less in it to lend toward prescription than had Gen.1 &amp; 2. </p>
<p>As for any &#8220;Unwritten Ten Commandments&#8221;, I in no way intend to insinuate such a thing. I do however intend to acknowledge that there exist many applications of the decalogue which we must reason out of the scripture as a whole. We nolonger fence rooftops but we do fence swimming pools for the sake of stray children. Are we therein partaking in a set of &#8220;Unwritten Commandments&#8221;? No. They are written plainly enough. But again, this is Christ&#8217;s issue with the Jews in Matt.19 who refused to acknowledge the necessary implications of God&#8217;s example for the family. Any violation of the institution as exemplified in the creation would then accordingly violate some measure of the decalogue also. To the issue in dispute I beleive the fifth and perhaps the seventh commandments are transgressed in mixed-marriage. If there is in some way a disregard for the Father (earthly or heavenly)in our bridegrooming it also undermines the concept of marital fidelity.</p>
<p>You could persist in calling it &#8220;weak&#8221; but if so it must be asked what connection you beleive Deut.22:9-11 has to the Ten commandments(?). First or second tablet? You may defer to say its ceremonial but if you do you&#8217;ll be arguing with the Apostle Paul who identifies it as pertaining to marriage in 2 Cor. 6:14.    </p>
<p>9 Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled. [a]<br />
10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.<br />
11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. (Deut.22:9-11) </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an acknowledgement of what Rushdoony called &#8220;congeniality&#8221; of kind as a directive amidst the creation. As God&#8217;s Viceroy on earth man&#8217;s role is in part to categorize and steward the myriad differentiations in the world. Again, where Moses applies it to a mundane swath of biological things, Paul applies it to Marriage. And&#8230;</p>
<p>  1st Tim.5:7-8<br />
&#8220;7 And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;Paul reinforces the notion of ethnic responsibility to the families of our nativity.</p>
<p>Out of time. Gotta go&#8212;</p>
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		<title>By: BigCalvin</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14013</link>
		<dc:creator>BigCalvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14013</guid>
		<description>By the way, chapter and verse, tongue and cheek, please list the moral imparatives of the created order.  You know, the unwritten Ten Commandments of Nature.  It looks like you are inching closer and closer to your true thesis:  Of course races shouldn&#039;t intermarry because it is so obvious...err...its in the created order...err... unwritten commands concealed in passages of the Bible.  Bring it on Michael Drosnin!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, chapter and verse, tongue and cheek, please list the moral imparatives of the created order.  You know, the unwritten Ten Commandments of Nature.  It looks like you are inching closer and closer to your true thesis:  Of course races shouldn&#8217;t intermarry because it is so obvious&#8230;err&#8230;its in the created order&#8230;err&#8230; unwritten commands concealed in passages of the Bible.  Bring it on Michael Drosnin!!!</p>
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		<title>By: BigCalvin</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-14012</link>
		<dc:creator>BigCalvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2007/01/15/the-fall-of-little-geneva-raises-questions/#comment-14012</guid>
		<description>I know Ehud...still weak.  Sorry to be snide, but really do you think that&#039;s persuasive.  First of all, to the is/ought fallacy... that was being applied specifically to that passage.  There can be descriptive passages and there can be passages that command.  This one seems descriptive, rather than a command.  Besides, wasn&#039;t the &quot;description&quot; in Genesis 1 a description of how the world works.  Hence, bears don&#039;t give birth to nor mate with dogs.  God moves on, the next day he created man.  There he didn&#039;t even mention kind, but presumable there was no risk of bestiality at that point.  Interesting.  Chapter 2 doesn&#039;t mention it, what this may point to is that there were no female humans on the earth.  Adam&#039;s kind is a human with a vagina.  It&#039;s still an is/ought fallacy to say that people like to be with those that are like them...to saying that they must not be with those that are not like them...in some specific quality.  Even when God causes something to happen, we have to do our homework and see if that state is a universal moral imperative or simply a circumstantial command: i.e...kill the Cannanites.  Is that circumstantial or universal?  What part of that is universal?  We should go from the clear to the unclear.  The passages and stretched inferences used are all catagorically unclear.  You know this, but you buck against it all the more.

As for a woman reflecting her husband, the argument that she should look like him is a whole bunch of nothing.  It is to place a premium on cosmetic differences.  You know it, but you still press it.  Having no actual command in the Bible of course forces you to insert race into passages that give no indication that they are about race.  It is really more like wishful thinking.  Please meet the mentioned task:  Where does the Bible forbid interracial marriage?  I know, it nevers says trinity...but there are plenty of passages that make the doctrine clear.  &quot;Inference&quot; is not license to put the meaning you like in.  There are good inferences, bad inferences, and shaky inferences.  Good ones are supported by &quot;logical&quot; inferences and sometimes even deductive.  Bad ones are when you assume as a premise what you intend to prove.  Shaky ones...well...somewhere inbetween...tenuous inductive and cumulative arguments.  

There is no logical reason to assume that all things being equal, pigmentation and skull structure is a major component of &quot;congenial&quot;. 

The fact that you can quote Rushdoony, Calvin, Machen, et al..., does not prove your point.  It only proves that they agree on some point with you.  You know this.  The hard work would be to prove this thesis with the text of scripture first.  You sound a lot like Tony.  Seriously, quoting people who agree with you, without any actual exegetical argument is a waste of bandwidth.   

I will exercise my excuse at this point:  I am in a law school class while typing this and I should be paying more attention.  My attention is split, so I may have made some serious blunders in responding to the man with a hypertrophed left forearm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know Ehud&#8230;still weak.  Sorry to be snide, but really do you think that&#8217;s persuasive.  First of all, to the is/ought fallacy&#8230; that was being applied specifically to that passage.  There can be descriptive passages and there can be passages that command.  This one seems descriptive, rather than a command.  Besides, wasn&#8217;t the &#8220;description&#8221; in Genesis 1 a description of how the world works.  Hence, bears don&#8217;t give birth to nor mate with dogs.  God moves on, the next day he created man.  There he didn&#8217;t even mention kind, but presumable there was no risk of bestiality at that point.  Interesting.  Chapter 2 doesn&#8217;t mention it, what this may point to is that there were no female humans on the earth.  Adam&#8217;s kind is a human with a vagina.  It&#8217;s still an is/ought fallacy to say that people like to be with those that are like them&#8230;to saying that they must not be with those that are not like them&#8230;in some specific quality.  Even when God causes something to happen, we have to do our homework and see if that state is a universal moral imperative or simply a circumstantial command: i.e&#8230;kill the Cannanites.  Is that circumstantial or universal?  What part of that is universal?  We should go from the clear to the unclear.  The passages and stretched inferences used are all catagorically unclear.  You know this, but you buck against it all the more.</p>
<p>As for a woman reflecting her husband, the argument that she should look like him is a whole bunch of nothing.  It is to place a premium on cosmetic differences.  You know it, but you still press it.  Having no actual command in the Bible of course forces you to insert race into passages that give no indication that they are about race.  It is really more like wishful thinking.  Please meet the mentioned task:  Where does the Bible forbid interracial marriage?  I know, it nevers says trinity&#8230;but there are plenty of passages that make the doctrine clear.  &#8220;Inference&#8221; is not license to put the meaning you like in.  There are good inferences, bad inferences, and shaky inferences.  Good ones are supported by &#8220;logical&#8221; inferences and sometimes even deductive.  Bad ones are when you assume as a premise what you intend to prove.  Shaky ones&#8230;well&#8230;somewhere inbetween&#8230;tenuous inductive and cumulative arguments.  </p>
<p>There is no logical reason to assume that all things being equal, pigmentation and skull structure is a major component of &#8220;congenial&#8221;. </p>
<p>The fact that you can quote Rushdoony, Calvin, Machen, et al&#8230;, does not prove your point.  It only proves that they agree on some point with you.  You know this.  The hard work would be to prove this thesis with the text of scripture first.  You sound a lot like Tony.  Seriously, quoting people who agree with you, without any actual exegetical argument is a waste of bandwidth.   </p>
<p>I will exercise my excuse at this point:  I am in a law school class while typing this and I should be paying more attention.  My attention is split, so I may have made some serious blunders in responding to the man with a hypertrophed left forearm.</p>
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