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	<title>Comments on: Is [Insert Blank] Made Up?</title>
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	<description>Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind</description>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-12566</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think he must have meant &quot;gay&quot; in the stupid sense (it&#039;s a versatile word, you know).  If you want to give him more credit, then you could say that using the name &quot;guy&quot; also implied that we were all girly men for even debating this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think he must have meant &#8220;gay&#8221; in the stupid sense (it&#8217;s a versatile word, you know).  If you want to give him more credit, then you could say that using the name &#8220;guy&#8221; also implied that we were all girly men for even debating this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: stelmodad</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-12565</link>
		<dc:creator>stelmodad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m just trying to figure out the implications of &quot;your all gay.&quot; Was there an â€œ&#039;sâ€ missing and is it supposed to read &quot;your all&#039;s gay&quot; - making some kind of statement against my laundry detergent?

If the &quot;r&quot; was to be &quot;&#039;re&quot; then have we all been found out as &quot;homosexuals&quot; or are we all just really happy to be blogging here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just trying to figure out the implications of &#8220;your all gay.&#8221; Was there an â€œ&#8217;sâ€ missing and is it supposed to read &#8220;your all&#8217;s gay&#8221; &#8211; making some kind of statement against my laundry detergent?</p>
<p>If the &#8220;r&#8221; was to be &#8220;&#8216;re&#8221; then have we all been found out as &#8220;homosexuals&#8221; or are we all just really happy to be blogging here?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-12466</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-12466</guid>
		<description>I knew that I would have to re-install that Troll Cap plugin again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew that I would have to re-install that Troll Cap plugin again.</p>
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		<title>By: guy</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-12450</link>
		<dc:creator>guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-12450</guid>
		<description>your all gay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>your all gay</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Poteet</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-10335</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Poteet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Dec 2006 03:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-10335</guid>
		<description>Well, I see my justification for not celebrating Christmas is on here.  Let me defend my claims against the claim made in this thread that I committed the genetic fallacy.

I have to admit that according to the definition provided that I would indeed commit this fallacy, but I feel I have liberty to do so (bear with me).  Think of the Christian life: we commit the &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;appeal to authority&lt;/a&gt;&quot; fallacy everyday by pointing to the Scriptures.

A. The Scriptures say that Jesus is the Christ.
B. The Scriptures are always right.
C. Therefore, Jesus is the Christ.

Is this a logical argument?  No.  Not by any means, and atheists have a field day with it.  You could also argue that the existence of God is disproved by the argument from perfection.

The point is that fallacious reasoning can be pointed out everywhere at every time.  Does that exclude me from the logical fallacies?  No of course not.  I&#039;m just trying to illustrate that we are all guilty in one way or another.  Here is an example of truly committing the fallacy.

REALLY BAD ARGUMENT AGAINST CHRISTMAS

A. Catholics invented it.
B. Catholics are wrong.
C. Therefore, Christmas is wrong.

I don&#039;t appeal to this line of argumentation.  I want to illustrate that, I believe, Christmas is not of God.  Remember that Yahweh didn&#039;t think highly of Baal and the associated worship with that false deity.

Just some thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I see my justification for not celebrating Christmas is on here.  Let me defend my claims against the claim made in this thread that I committed the genetic fallacy.</p>
<p>I have to admit that according to the definition provided that I would indeed commit this fallacy, but I feel I have liberty to do so (bear with me).  Think of the Christian life: we commit the &#8220;<a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html" rel="nofollow">appeal to authority</a>&#8221; fallacy everyday by pointing to the Scriptures.</p>
<p>A. The Scriptures say that Jesus is the Christ.<br />
B. The Scriptures are always right.<br />
C. Therefore, Jesus is the Christ.</p>
<p>Is this a logical argument?  No.  Not by any means, and atheists have a field day with it.  You could also argue that the existence of God is disproved by the argument from perfection.</p>
<p>The point is that fallacious reasoning can be pointed out everywhere at every time.  Does that exclude me from the logical fallacies?  No of course not.  I&#8217;m just trying to illustrate that we are all guilty in one way or another.  Here is an example of truly committing the fallacy.</p>
<p>REALLY BAD ARGUMENT AGAINST CHRISTMAS</p>
<p>A. Catholics invented it.<br />
B. Catholics are wrong.<br />
C. Therefore, Christmas is wrong.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t appeal to this line of argumentation.  I want to illustrate that, I believe, Christmas is not of God.  Remember that Yahweh didn&#8217;t think highly of Baal and the associated worship with that false deity.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-9249</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 08:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-9249</guid>
		<description>Scott, I&#039;m starting off by looking at Christmas apart from any genetic concerns.  It doesn&#039;t matter to me if in its historical development it had pagan and/or syncretistic origins.  I think that kind of thinking is fallacious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html

Let&#039;s take a Christmas observance in it&#039;s best case scenario form. It&#039;s a worshipful celebration of the anniversary of one of the most momentous events in Redemptive History: The Incarnation. There may be nonChristians today trying to co-opt it for consumeristic purposes... but that has nothing to do with the manner in which we would ourselves observe this holy day.

So, for arguments sake, you and I are observing this Feast because we are Christians; because we are acknowledging a special act of God in saving His people. &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;This&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; is what our Christmas celebration is, and nothing else. Christmas, for us, is not what others do or don&#039;t understand, or what they do or don&#039;t do. It is rather, for us, what we ourselves understand and are doing.

In these terms, we are understanding Christmas to be something we do because we are Christians. We participate in it as part of what it means for us to live the Christian life.  If we lived in any other culture, at any other time (A.D.), we could and would still recognize the Incarnation via Christmas or what would amount to a Christmas-equivalent.

Not so with American Thanksgiving.  It is true that various other cultures and societies throughout history had and have Harvest Feasts, and the majority of these may be cultic (worship-ish) in nature.  But American Thanksgiving is not an abstracted Harvest ritual.  It is a peculiar national (not to say &quot;government appointed,&quot; although it also became that) observance, directly related to the history of this country&#039;s founding through its first English settlers.  If the &quot;Pilgrims&quot; were Jews, of Deists, or African Voodooists, or even Roman Catholics... I and you as Americans could still observe this memorial as what we are: Calvinists --worshipers of the Lord Jesus.

And yet we would do it &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; we were Americans, not matter what our religion was, and no matter to Whom we were or were not offering our thanks.  In this regard it parallels OktoberFest, or Timbucktoo&#039;s Independence Day.  If you and I were Bavarians or Timbucktooians, we would celebrate those occasions &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; we were Bavarian or Timbucktooian, and by God&#039;s grace we would yet do it as Calvinists.

In Old Covenant times we might consider the difference between the Cultic Feasts which God appointed, particularly the &quot;Big Three&quot; and the Sabbath as compared to national celebrations &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; of the Lord&#039;s ordinance, and yet legitimate on cultural grounds: Purim, Chanukah, and others such festivals.

In fact, birthdays and wedding anniversaries fall into this latter category.  We do them &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; we are born and married... and yet we do them as Christians.

Is the distinction any clearer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I&#8217;m starting off by looking at Christmas apart from any genetic concerns.  It doesn&#8217;t matter to me if in its historical development it had pagan and/or syncretistic origins.  I think that kind of thinking is fallacious:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy</a><br />
<a href="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html</a></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take a Christmas observance in it&#8217;s best case scenario form. It&#8217;s a worshipful celebration of the anniversary of one of the most momentous events in Redemptive History: The Incarnation. There may be nonChristians today trying to co-opt it for consumeristic purposes&#8230; but that has nothing to do with the manner in which we would ourselves observe this holy day.</p>
<p>So, for arguments sake, you and I are observing this Feast because we are Christians; because we are acknowledging a special act of God in saving His people. <i><b>This</b></i> is what our Christmas celebration is, and nothing else. Christmas, for us, is not what others do or don&#8217;t understand, or what they do or don&#8217;t do. It is rather, for us, what we ourselves understand and are doing.</p>
<p>In these terms, we are understanding Christmas to be something we do because we are Christians. We participate in it as part of what it means for us to live the Christian life.  If we lived in any other culture, at any other time (A.D.), we could and would still recognize the Incarnation via Christmas or what would amount to a Christmas-equivalent.</p>
<p>Not so with American Thanksgiving.  It is true that various other cultures and societies throughout history had and have Harvest Feasts, and the majority of these may be cultic (worship-ish) in nature.  But American Thanksgiving is not an abstracted Harvest ritual.  It is a peculiar national (not to say &#8220;government appointed,&#8221; although it also became that) observance, directly related to the history of this country&#8217;s founding through its first English settlers.  If the &#8220;Pilgrims&#8221; were Jews, of Deists, or African Voodooists, or even Roman Catholics&#8230; I and you as Americans could still observe this memorial as what we are: Calvinists &#8211;worshipers of the Lord Jesus.</p>
<p>And yet we would do it <i>because</i> we were Americans, not matter what our religion was, and no matter to Whom we were or were not offering our thanks.  In this regard it parallels OktoberFest, or Timbucktoo&#8217;s Independence Day.  If you and I were Bavarians or Timbucktooians, we would celebrate those occasions <i>because</i> we were Bavarian or Timbucktooian, and by God&#8217;s grace we would yet do it as Calvinists.</p>
<p>In Old Covenant times we might consider the difference between the Cultic Feasts which God appointed, particularly the &#8220;Big Three&#8221; and the Sabbath as compared to national celebrations <i>not</i> of the Lord&#8217;s ordinance, and yet legitimate on cultural grounds: Purim, Chanukah, and others such festivals.</p>
<p>In fact, birthdays and wedding anniversaries fall into this latter category.  We do them <i>because</i> we are born and married&#8230; and yet we do them as Christians.</p>
<p>Is the distinction any clearer?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-9242</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 06:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-9242</guid>
		<description>@stelmodad: I like what you&#039;re saying about pace of life...the day, the seasons, etc. all have a shape given to them by the Creator (something we are increasingly losing touch with in our face paced culture).

@mrs: We&#039;re all like first graders!

@Baus: Since Christmas has now become a stand-alone secular/cultural holiday, the progression would look something like this:

Paganism ==&gt; Christianized (Solstice) ==&gt; secularized Christmas

You said that even though Thanksgiving it is culturally celebrated &quot;because we are Americans,&quot; we still can celebrate it &quot;as Christians.&quot;  Since the Native Americans started the idea of harvest celebrations, the historical movement of Thanksgiving looks similar:

Animism ==&gt; Puritanism ==&gt; secularized Thanksgiving

Why is it okay for a Christian to celebrate Thanksgiving alongside of millions who don&#039;t believe in a God to thank, but it&#039;s not okay for a Christian to celebrate Christmas under the same circumstances?  Wouldn&#039;t the regulative principle apply to Thanksgiving, too?  I don&#039;t see the point in feasting and thanking the god of Chance, so it has to be celebrated &quot;because I&#039;m a Christian.&quot;  If I wasn&#039;t a Christian, then I&#039;d probably ditch Thanksgiving.  It&#039;s too much work! ;)  What other holidays (religious, secular or blended) do you think are impacted by the regulative principle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@stelmodad: I like what you&#8217;re saying about pace of life&#8230;the day, the seasons, etc. all have a shape given to them by the Creator (something we are increasingly losing touch with in our face paced culture).</p>
<p>@mrs: We&#8217;re all like first graders!</p>
<p>@Baus: Since Christmas has now become a stand-alone secular/cultural holiday, the progression would look something like this:</p>
<p>Paganism ==> Christianized (Solstice) ==> secularized Christmas</p>
<p>You said that even though Thanksgiving it is culturally celebrated &#8220;because we are Americans,&#8221; we still can celebrate it &#8220;as Christians.&#8221;  Since the Native Americans started the idea of harvest celebrations, the historical movement of Thanksgiving looks similar:</p>
<p>Animism ==> Puritanism ==> secularized Thanksgiving</p>
<p>Why is it okay for a Christian to celebrate Thanksgiving alongside of millions who don&#8217;t believe in a God to thank, but it&#8217;s not okay for a Christian to celebrate Christmas under the same circumstances?  Wouldn&#8217;t the regulative principle apply to Thanksgiving, too?  I don&#8217;t see the point in feasting and thanking the god of Chance, so it has to be celebrated &#8220;because I&#8217;m a Christian.&#8221;  If I wasn&#8217;t a Christian, then I&#8217;d probably ditch Thanksgiving.  It&#8217;s too much work! <img src='http://transformatum.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   What other holidays (religious, secular or blended) do you think are impacted by the regulative principle?</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-9191</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-9191</guid>
		<description>Celebration is not different than worship (as far as the regulative principle applies to celebration) when that celebration is thought to be basically &quot;Christian&quot; in character.

Example:  We celebrate Thanksgiving &lt;i&gt;as&lt;/i&gt; Christians (we give thanks to our Lord Jesus), but we celebrate it &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; we are Americans.  It&#039;s not a &quot;Christian&quot; celebration, it&#039;s an American one. It&#039;s something we view as part of being American, not as part of what it means to be Christian.

I hope the distinction is clear enough.

Now, typically, you&#039;re going to be celebrating Christmas &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; you&#039;re a Christian.  That is, you see it as part of your practicing the Christian faith and life.

So, considering the regulative principle then takes us entirely out of the &quot;redeeming vs. abandoning&quot; continuum. There are two contrary pieties here; two alternative conceptions of spirituality. One is rooted in an &#039;ecclesiastical calendar&#039; type conception (even if the traditional ritualism is removed, as it is in evangelicalism), and the other is rooted in the regulative principle.

Redeeming or abandoning Christmas (or any other &quot;Christian&quot; holiday/celebration), and the whole question of commercialism and/or syncretism, only makes sense in terms of a &#039;calendar&#039; type conception. The regulative principle offers an entirely new way of approaching the whole question.  It provides us with radically different assumptions concerning Christian faith and practice; Christian piety / spirituality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celebration is not different than worship (as far as the regulative principle applies to celebration) when that celebration is thought to be basically &#8220;Christian&#8221; in character.</p>
<p>Example:  We celebrate Thanksgiving <i>as</i> Christians (we give thanks to our Lord Jesus), but we celebrate it <i>because</i> we are Americans.  It&#8217;s not a &#8220;Christian&#8221; celebration, it&#8217;s an American one. It&#8217;s something we view as part of being American, not as part of what it means to be Christian.</p>
<p>I hope the distinction is clear enough.</p>
<p>Now, typically, you&#8217;re going to be celebrating Christmas <i>because</i> you&#8217;re a Christian.  That is, you see it as part of your practicing the Christian faith and life.</p>
<p>So, considering the regulative principle then takes us entirely out of the &#8220;redeeming vs. abandoning&#8221; continuum. There are two contrary pieties here; two alternative conceptions of spirituality. One is rooted in an &#8216;ecclesiastical calendar&#8217; type conception (even if the traditional ritualism is removed, as it is in evangelicalism), and the other is rooted in the regulative principle.</p>
<p>Redeeming or abandoning Christmas (or any other &#8220;Christian&#8221; holiday/celebration), and the whole question of commercialism and/or syncretism, only makes sense in terms of a &#8216;calendar&#8217; type conception. The regulative principle offers an entirely new way of approaching the whole question.  It provides us with radically different assumptions concerning Christian faith and practice; Christian piety / spirituality.</p>
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		<title>By: mrscrumley</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-9186</link>
		<dc:creator>mrscrumley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-9186</guid>
		<description>This is a really interesting conversation. And I am enjoying reading all of your comments about it.

Right now I am in a spiritual place where I think I &lt;b&gt;need&lt;/b&gt; to be the first grader with a teacher holding my hand to write. I had a bad Christmas last year with too much focus on the material and consumerism. I am embracing Advent so that I am forced to focus on the celebration of the birth of Christ. (Side question: celebration is different than worship, right?) And as a bonus, I think we are focused more on family togetherness right now, so that helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really interesting conversation. And I am enjoying reading all of your comments about it.</p>
<p>Right now I am in a spiritual place where I think I <b>need</b> to be the first grader with a teacher holding my hand to write. I had a bad Christmas last year with too much focus on the material and consumerism. I am embracing Advent so that I am forced to focus on the celebration of the birth of Christ. (Side question: celebration is different than worship, right?) And as a bonus, I think we are focused more on family togetherness right now, so that helps.</p>
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		<title>By: stelmodad</title>
		<link>http://transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/comment-page-1/#comment-9182</link>
		<dc:creator>stelmodad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transformatum.com/2006/12/04/is-insert-blank-made-up/#comment-9182</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a bit two (or three) faced about ecclesial calenders and such things but I&#039;ve not found a sweet spot. I&#039;m a grown man, who&#039;s acknowledged his own sin, his faith, the greater church it is a part of and the cultural models that it supports or confronts but I find myself though in this quandry. I want both freedom from mindless conformity and a church or culture to remind me of where my priorities should be.

Businesses may have commercial motivations to use this season to help peddle their wares, but money or not it is good and holy to both acknowledge and rejoice in the incarnation of our Lord and Savior.

I may not be fully aware of what I&#039;m asking for when I use phrases like ecclesial calender, but the notion of having pace of life which is constantly reminded of God&#039;s redemtive work sounds like a good thing to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit two (or three) faced about ecclesial calenders and such things but I&#8217;ve not found a sweet spot. I&#8217;m a grown man, who&#8217;s acknowledged his own sin, his faith, the greater church it is a part of and the cultural models that it supports or confronts but I find myself though in this quandry. I want both freedom from mindless conformity and a church or culture to remind me of where my priorities should be.</p>
<p>Businesses may have commercial motivations to use this season to help peddle their wares, but money or not it is good and holy to both acknowledge and rejoice in the incarnation of our Lord and Savior.</p>
<p>I may not be fully aware of what I&#8217;m asking for when I use phrases like ecclesial calender, but the notion of having pace of life which is constantly reminded of God&#8217;s redemtive work sounds like a good thing to me.</p>
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